What did everyone think of the mass last night? I really enjoyed the route, but I noticed a few more conflicts with drivers than usual. There were numerous instances of cars getting trapped in the middle of the mass, which is something I think we should take a more active effort to avoid.
I went to El Myr with some friends after the mass, and as we were unlocking our bikes, a guy asked us if we rode in Critical Mass tonight. As soon as I replied in the affirmative, he shoved me to the ground without any further warning and immediately started yelling about how some people in CM were fucking with his car tonight (or maybe just yelling at him, I'm not sure) and how he rides a bike all the time and felt like we made it more dangerous for people who ride daily. It's not an unfamiliar viewpoint to me, but I'm not sure shoving people to the ground without provocation or warning is really the best way to get his message across either. He was pretty drunk, but I tried to defuse the situation non-violently by telling him that all of us were daily commuters and tried to curb people from being douchebags taking advantage of the anonymity provided by the mass, but he wasn't hearing of it. A fight almost broke out, he went back inside and hid from us for a while, and eventually came out and apologized. Nothing awful happened, but it was still a pretty shitty experience.
I don't think this is going to transform me instantly into one of those "Fuck CM" people, but I'm definitely going to respond more harshly in the future if I see anyone in the mass acting like an idiot, and I think it's something we should all consider doing. If we don't police ourselves, then inevitably somebody else is going to step in, and I don't really care for the idea of that.
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lol get a car
wow
i didn't ride in the mass last night, but i agree -- CM should not be "anti-car." i think that the wise thing to do when a car gets stuck in the middle of the mass is to allow it room to get out as quickly and safely as possible. drivers don't want to be in the middle of CM any more than cyclists want them there.
i agree 100% on the self-policing aspect. if somebody in the ride is being a jerk, it's probably better to tell them "hey, you're being a jerk," rather than riding by and ignoring their jerkiness.
that said, it's pretty messed up that some random dude shoved you to the ground!
I know I've said my piece
I know I've said my piece about CM and how it's counter productive... and I won't start in again...
All the points both Ben and Connie bring up are valid, but the "self-policing" aspect will never happen. I tell people they're idiots all the time, and all I get are responses like "You're an asshole". So all I have to say is... Good Luck.
Delivery matters
To paraphrase a tenet from a well-known western religion, perhaps we should hate the asinine act and not the asshole. As a teacher, I've often experienced that distinguishing between wrong action and a person's intrinsic wrongness makes a big difference when you're trying to get them to change their behavior. Rather than telling people they're bad, maybe remind them that they already know how to act better?
Uh.
maybe remind them that they already know how to act better
Yeah, you try that next time you're 'en masse'. You shouldn't have to tell adults to do something they should already be doing.
I'll tell you simply, the reaction of a person, when they are told they are doing something destructive, isn't a result of delivery... it's a reflection of the person.
You shouldn't have to tell
You shouldn't have to tell adults to do something they should already be doing.
Of course not. But sadly, we live in a society that's extremely tollerent of the infantile. Also, critical mass is a mob. It's way too easy for perfectly reasonable people to be infected by the mob mentality.
And I disagree. Not to discount the influence a person's character has upon their reaction to criticism, but I think the style of delivery of said criticism also has a noticable influence on the reaction. Admittedly I only have anecdotal evidence to back up my claim, but I've seen it happen a lot, across a wide range of ages. Not just kids. Also, Sharon informs me that there is a high likelihood that psychological studies have already been conducted which prove my assertion. She will check tomorrow at work.
I believe an NWA song may sum up my POV.
I too only have anecdotal evidence... but IMO no one likes to be told what to do or think (and will react accordingly)...
I'm trying to think of a good way to put this into context. This isn't telling first graders to wash after going to the bathroom. It's telling people who are coming to CM with the intent of being aggressive towards motorists*, to chillax and not be aggressive. That aggression is going to go somewhere (and aggression never disappears). Attempting to self-police will only result in two things: one, no one taking you seriously and/or two, everyone giving you "Delta Bravo" awards.
Give it a shot, I mean you have to, it's the only way in my mind that you will see what I am talking about. Be careful though, you don't want a repeat of the last time you told an adult how they should act.
*These same kids are probably in a car the other 30 days of the month. Their aggression given to motorists is the same aggression I have to put up with the remaining days of the month. I could go on and on about how just being in the mass, no matter what I do or my attitude, enables and validates this ass-hattery, but I already have.
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not to bring up sour grapes, but how was your delivery with the truck driver who gave you a fat lip?
tipping
I just finished reading The Tipping Point (recommended), and there's a fair bit in there about mob mentality and group behavior and the way these things give "permission" to people to act in ways they normally wouldn't. It also talks about peer pressure and the way that modifies behavior.
Although CM is made up of a very diverse group who come with varying attitudes and intentions, we should be able to agree on a basic set of "don't be a dick" etiquette rules. Even if (y)our attempts at self-policing fall on deaf ears of the recipient, just by speaking up you actually are "giving permission" to others to speak up and help self-police. Eventually you reach a tipping point, where the people being dicks catch a lot of grief for it, and they either stop doing it or stop coming to CM.
If there is one thing I have
If there is one thing I have realized with cyclists across the spectrum is that they are all different. Different in their purpose for riding and therefore their philosophy on cyclist/motorist etiquette. I have noticed that some racers for example ride their bikes like they drive their cars rather than the other way around. These people tend to put the most time on their bike, Whereas commuters deserve the award for taking the brunt of the load and still maintaining a sensible etiquette since they are actually using the bike for an alternative to the car.
A lot of CMers though are kids, not committed commuters. I don't see too many racer types show up either. I have been on a CM ride and been next to a "kid" who started drinking earlier that day in preparation for the event. I've been on rides where a "kid" next to me was clearly riding a crapped out Walmart MTB that was last used by their brother 3 years ago.
I'm not pointing this up to invalidate CM. I just see now that there is a side of the cycling "community" that does not show up ever. Because CM is against their philosophy. And I can tell you it is a large absence.
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well said, as usual
not cool about the shoving
not cool about the shoving you :(
i just recently started doing critical mass again, and I have to admit when I came out last month (for the first time 6 months) I looked at it a lot differently. It made me very nervous after being a car driver for so long, because I can totally see now how cm could bring out a lot of aggression from people in cars since they are already probably stressed from the un-fun driving.
Not much feedback I have to say, other than people trying to maintain the whole keeping it cool and playing nice thing. We are inconveniencing people for a little bit of our biking fun (people who are probably trying to get home for the weekend to have fun as well) - no harm in trying to keep things friendly. (Which I think a good majority do!) There are always going to be dicks no matter what, but it wouldn't hurt to tell someone to chill and enjoy themselves if you see them acting craptastic on their bike.
We seemed a bit more spread
We seemed a bit more spread out this time than last month.
Other than that, I really enjoyed the ride - I didn't see any angry cars, and the pedestrians we passed were all pretty supportive. Definitely not what I expected in a city as car-focused as Atlanta.
Maybe the non-bike people were more tolerant because this is the first big critical mass we've had since fall? Or maybe they just welcomed the novelty of seeing so many cars in such a car-less city.
barftown
every month the same stupid discussion comes up
is critical mass good? is critical mass bad? then we have some people who have plenty of things to say both ways, and the same crap gets rehashed every time. blah blah blah.
this is the crap that makes me want to ride my bike to/from work/school and never speak a word to anyone about it.
some dude came out of el myr and pushed ben down because ben said, "yes, I did go to critical mass." then I drunkenly waved my u-lock in his face, telling him that he doesn't know us or our cycling habits, fuck off, etc., and that I am not representative of any cycling anything, I am just a person who has a bike and uses it to get places. there were 6 of us and one of him, so of course he backed down.
some people like critical mass.
others don't.
if you like it, go.
if you don't, don't.
let's quit talking about it.
the end.
double barf
I get tired of reading the same discussions over and over, too. But your logic follows perfectly well:
If you like reading/talking about it, do.
If you don't, don't.
last straw, over it.
byebye, faster mustache!
I'll miss you, Amber. I
I'll miss you, Amber.
I can't tell if this is a problem with the south, the internet, cyclists, adults, or just people who aren't me, but it seems that there is a sharp divide between people who wish to discuss touchy subjects and those who don't. Furthermore, those who don't want to discuss don't seem to realize that they don't have to read or participate in threads they're not interested in and, instead, chime in to tell the debaters to shut up. Then one of two things happens: Either the husher gets told no, and then husher picks up his/her toys in a huff and goes home, or the hushee gets annoyed for being censored and then picks up his/her toys in a huff and goes home. Sometimes they come back later, sometimes not. It's happened a bunch. This divide has driven off a lot of nice people from both camps. Did my parents forget to tell me that this is common and acceptable behavior? I know I've inadvertently helped drive people off simply because I was reacting on the expectation that they would stand their ground. What gives?
I don't really get where the hushers are coming from. Nobody's forcing them to read or participate against their will. If you don't like it, just skip it. If it's over something that's degenerated into a flame war, I can sort of understand where they're coming from. But as long as it's attempting to be a constructive discussion, even if it's the millionth rehash of the same stuff, even if it's "internet pugilism," I don't see the harm. Little changes for the better unless it gets discussed. To me, if we're agreeing not to talk about something unresolved, then we're giving up on it.
But what if something you do
But what if something you do affects me in a negative way? Am I not allowed to speak out about your actions because doing so may make you vomit?
seriously....
do people care this much about the right/wrong of critical mass? do you really feel like critical mass infringes on you negatively? since FM doesn't organize CM, having a moral debate about the rights and wrong of it here doesn't really get anyone anywhere. That doesn't mean you shouldn't have an opinion, but read through the 100000000 past discussions if you really care that much.
Oh fuck, seriously? Let me
Oh fuck, seriously? Let me quote myself, from this thread alone:
These same kids are probably in a car the other 30 days of the month. Their aggression given to motorists is the same aggression I have to put up with the remaining days of the month. I could go on and on about how just being in the mass, no matter what I do or my attitude, enables and validates this ass-hattery, but I already have.
While FM doesn't 'organize' CM, it is the major sounding board for CM discussion in Atlanta. There are plenty of people here who ride CM. When I speak out about something, I want some of it to at least land near the people involved... if I didn't give a crap, I'd have tea party with teddy bears.
Don't hide behind vague and meaningless statements about CM (Re. No one organizes CM, No one is the leader, CM is different things to different people).
If you want to argue other points of CM (like the moral implications of having a non-protest protest) then start a new thread... this one is about self-policing.
closing statements
I love how you love to call people out on the calling-out. I especially love the constant suggestions that the thoughts and opinions of everyone else are completely irrelevant, and no matter what, you find a way to turn the conversation around on all the other participants. If you can't find a logical way, you just go ahead and use some sarcastic bullshit insult. I don't expect to win or even carry on an argument with you because I am hereby swearing that this is my last post on FM (for good!), but even if I wanted to try, it would be useless because as my mom would say, you would argue with a stump. Basically, what you're saying day after day is, "stop arguing about (x) and argue with me instead because your concerns are irrelevant according to me and I'd like to pick a fight with you about it! Don't expect me to care if you call me out on it, because I'll just find another reason to pick a fight!"
I hope one day your bicycle magically turns into the high horse of your dreams, and maybe if you're super lucky, you'll be the pretty princess you've always wanted to be. People will love you and you won't have to hide behind your internet smartass guise to get your self-validation.
As for the inevitable "how often are you on a bike" bullshit that will subsequently arise, I'll go ahead and say the following:
-I ride my bike to school on the two to three days a week I have to go.
-I ride my bike to work for the few shifts I get a week.
-I ride my bike to wherever I go on the weekend, most of the time.
-I don't really go anywhere else, aside from the grocery store, to which I drive.
-I don't usually participate in races or group rides because I'm slow and I'm okay with it. My bike is like my leg-powered second car. I don't like sports and I don't care about competition.
Quite frankly, I just don't care anymore.
With that, have a lovely time wasting your life away being an internet dick. As for the rest of you, see you guys in the streets... if you're (un)lucky enough to share one of my two measley commute routes!
Re: the pretty princess I've always wanted to be
While I would love to start to pick this apart I won't... instead I'll agree with you on all your points. (However, you're a bit off on a lot of them, and if you'd like to find out how, give me a call we can talk one on one (seriously), we can hang out, drink, and throw beer bottles at trains sometime (or whatever).
Our bicycling habits are almost a mirror of one another.
I have participated in over a dozen CM's in my life, and one day took a real long look at what CM seeks to accomplish, and what it actually does (and rode three more while I did so). After doing so, I saw how truly detrimental it was to promoting progressive transit (it makes more motorists angry at cyclists than it does convincing them to try cycling). To sum it up simply... if you want people to share the road, then get out there and share it.
Quite frankly, I just don't care anymore.
You know what, me too... but I won't stop fighting for what I believe to be the truth.
good sir
ride bikes. have fun. do/ride what you want.
why can't we all get along? no one's getting there mind changed about this issue so lets not hurt feelings.
seth is a fragile feline
Wow. I rode in the cm yesterday and it was my first one in atl
These are only my opinions and I could easily be wrong as they are based on my limited observations.
First off I love the variety in the cycle culture found in this city.
I just moved here to atl recently, and I have been on my bike every day. Talking to people, riding with people, and visiting bike shops. One thing I have learned is a lot of people have a generally different cycling/more aggressive style than I am used to seeing in other parts of the country. At first when everyone I met had a, "I have been hit by a car," story I thought it was only drivers, but after a little observation I learned it was just as much our fault as cyclist as theirs as drivers.
The Atlanta CM was an interesting experience for me. I have ridden in cm's in several different cities and countries. And have gone so far as help organize one, but this was easily one of the largest I have been involved in. Of course when you have this any people on bikes in a herd you have issues. I tried to do my part to do what I could when I could to help cars that were lost in the pack make it to a safe exit point, but with communication being at a premium it proved difficult. Plus the fact I didn’t know any of the other riders it also proved to only make it more difficult. Only while blocking intersections was I able to learn who to talk to to help things flow a little more smoothly. While CM’s don’t have a leader there are those who provide a sort of back bone and structure. I thought while riding some of the side streets that this mass was going great, but once we got to Ponce de leon. It did become painfully obvious why a lot of cyclist say they can’t ride down Ponce alone. And I was able to see just how a large Mass can be harmful to the cyclist/driver interaction in a city. The angry reaction from drivers at the intersection near the Majestic was a perfect example considering the fact we blocked traffic for nearly seven minutes or about 3-4 traffic light cycles.
I noted from several people that this one was a lot more spread out than than usual as well. But watching some of the cyclist involved it would have made me uncomfortable to ride a lot closer to some of them given their skill level. After announcing in a clear loud voice, “On your left,” several people didn’t look or check their blind spots.
Though riding is healthy for the human psyche it cannot cure all ills. All riders carry some weight of diseased spirit. Still, better we ride than vegetate.
I would love to further discuss this with you all either here on my site or in person. I will be at SOPO tomorrow and I am always fairly easy to find.
www.stupidhurts.org
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But watching some of the cyclist involved it would have made me uncomfortable to ride a lot closer to some of them given their skill level.
Exactly. I used to ride CM, and this is how I figured out that the crowd wasn't exactly the dedicated commuter crowd that it should be.
Devils Advocate
****Disclaimer: I do not think the following, I am going to try out a strain of thinking and see where it brings me, and see if it can fend off the more popular arguments against this, i intend to learn a lite from the debate i am attempting to start with out insulting any of the participants, if the moderator, or other forum members object to me starting this debate then i will edit this post to say "we all like bikes". End Disclaimer*****
why should CM not be anti-car? in fact i would argue that it is inherently so as it is (1) taking space on the road that is designed for cars (weather cyclists are allowed to share this space is irrelevant, as is weather roads should be designed differnetly). (2) causing a disruption to the flow of automotive traffic, so a bunch of cyclists can make a point, and (3) the point that they are making is more space for bikes, which means less space for cars and is ergo anti-car.
****Disclaimer: I do not think the following, I am going to try out a strain of thinking and see where it brings me, and see if it can fend off the more popular arguments against this, i intend to learn a lite from the debate i am attempting to start with out insulting any of the participants, if the moderator, or other forum members object to me starting this debate then i will edit this post to say "we all like bikes". End Disclaimer*****
I agree
Thoughtful disclaimer unnecessary. I think everyone has had their piss-off moment.
Hate to see you hanging in the wind
so I'll give it a go.
why should CM not be anti-car? Because we 'share' the roads with motorists the rest of the month; and hating/anti-car just takes too much damn energy. Besides, I use a car most days, not just to get all the way to work.
(1) taking space on the road that is designed for cars Hard surfaced roads were originally advocated by cyclists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Roads_Movement
(2) causing a disruption to the flow of automotive traffic, so a bunch of cyclists can make a point I don't believe for one minute that CM is doing anything for motorist/cyclist understanding. I just like riding around the city with few hundred other cyclists.
(3) the point that they are making is more space for bikes, which means less space for cars and is ergo anti-car. Unless the cars occupied 100% of the surface of the roads bikes are not taking space from cars. See Midnight Ride
rebuttal!
1 "At the turn of the twentieth century, interest in the bicycle began to wane in the face of increasing interest in automobiles. Other groups took the lead in the Good Roads Movement. As the automobile was developed and gained momentum, organizations developed such cross-county projects as the coast-to-coast east-west Lincoln Highway 1913, headed by auto parts and auto racing magnate Carl G. Fisher, and later his north-south Dixie Highway 1915, which extended from Canada to Miami, Florida." from your source, seems for the last 100 years roads where designed for cars, i believe that my point stands.
2. i agree with you, and only attend CM for the fun, but think that the point there ride is trying to make is clear from the header of http://critical-mass.info/origin.html and despite the intention of some rides, i would say the ride has a (semi) political point.
3. when critical mass occupies enough of the road that cars cannot get through then it is taking space form them.
hi
my name is connie and i like to ride my bicycle.
hi
my name is connie and i like to post twice just to make my point.
connie
btw .... there will be a present on your front porch this evening.
Hi connie!
Didn't see it was you till you were next to me.
Drizzle > &^%$@upped glasses > no glasses > who are you?
Hi, Connie
Saw you heading towards Inman Park this morning. Greetings.
hello hello
i saw you both
i love riding my bike
Me too
People don't usually wave and say hello in de autos.
Well.
One time Ben (gong) and I were riding up Ponce and he sort of spaced out and almost hit a car stopped at a red light. Some guy leaned out and said "Hey! Don't hit my car, gong!"
Ben almost replied testily, but then did a aural double take at the "gong" reference. It was toomanyaustins.