So Cat-1 Cat-2 sounds real lame. Here is what I propose: Squids and Goats.
This Decision needs to be made by August 9th so pre-registration and website stuff can be done right so people know what to expect.
Not your traditional definitions, but hear me out:
Squids: sponsored teams, etc. They ride real fast for real long. Prizes in this category won't be tattoos and hip pouches, but something more appropriate like street cred and biking gear, burritos, Perhaps some sort of $? People should ride in this category if they are for real serious biking people. If you have a road racing category level, are cat B2 or higher at the track, or were in the top N last year, you have to be in this category? N is 6?
Goats: bike ridin kids. They might spend more time drinkin beer, but still ride lots. Prizes in this category would be tattos and hip pouches, street cred, some $, burritos, and things like that. People should ride in this category if they don't consider themselves real serious. Having a road kit doesn't necessarily mean you can't ride in this category, but might suggest you think about the first category.
Prizes for each of these should be comparable, but the ones for "Squids" should be worth a bit more and the ones for Goats should be worth a bit less but still be awesome.
Thoughts?
I say fixed/free... no
I say fixed/free... no better way to build animosity than to classify you based on what you wear. "Everyone's Invited!"
(In truth, I say no categories... period. First place prize goes to the team that gets the most laps, no matter what they ride nor their training regiment. Who are we to judge? You wanna win, you gotta sweat right? You complain if a squid team takes first and your goat team with it's "down five beers and then fall off your bike" training regime loses? I say "quit whining and ride faster and longer... or drink more and don't worry about winning".)
(I also think first place should be CASH. Maybe one of those huge novelty checks too. Lesser prizes doled out accordingly.)
CASH is great. Here's why I
CASH is great.
Here's why I want categories:
-people that are riding to have fun might stop riding halfway through the night when it gets a little cold and a team that races professionally is kicking their ass. The point of this race is to have fun.
-prizes to people that take winning very seriously are likely different than people that aren't taking it too seriously.
-I expect goats that want to kick some ass will sign up to race with the squids. Whats better as a goat than to beat squids in the squid group?
FM.24 is a race but it's about having a good time too. I don't want it to loose sight of the funness part, but I don't want people that want to seriously race to be discouraged either.
-people that are riding to
-people that are riding to have fun might stop riding halfway through the night when it gets a little cold and a team that races professionally is kicking their ass. The point of this race is to have fun.
the point of the race is to have fun, exactly. if you forget that, you're "racing" for the wrong reason. if someone's kicking your ass, fucking suck it up and realize that they're busy training when you're busy doing homework or working your crappy service job to pay your student loans. i had a squid blow by me going up 10th last year at 4AM and i didn't get discouraged; i thought it was awesome he could haul ass like that.
-prizes to people that take winning very seriously are likely different than people that aren't taking it too seriously.
so why don't you just create a tier system, or start awarding prizes for top 10?
-I expect goats that want to kick some ass will sign up to race with the squids. Whats better as a goat than to beat squids in the squid group?
put a goat in squid skins, what now? we're arguing about fashion. shit, he has a beard, but spandex and a road bike. fuck, he's sponsored, but rode his fixie! wtf how am i supposed to label this cyclist?? we need a more definite definition, i think.
FM.24 is a race but it's about having a good time too. I don't want it to loose sight of the funness part, but I don't want people that want to seriously race to be discouraged either.
sounds like you're talking about making two races within one race. amirite?
+1
Fuck these cliched labels already.
+1
for once I don't have anything to add, good job
I like the idea of having
I like the idea of having two ability-based categories. Specially if this thing is going to be as big as we're anticipating. I'm against calling them squids and goats. And I'm not sure how I feel about trying to tailor the prizes to the different categories. But I think we should do something to keep newer/more casual riders excited and less discouraged about having to compete with the baddest of the bad.
what do you suggest for
what do you suggest for category names then? I think cat-1/A and cat-2/B are pretty lame.
the "upper" category needs bigger prizes to discourage people that should be there from racing in the lower one.
did Team Equal Opportunity
did Team Equal Opportunity Slackers feel discouraged in 2005? I don't think so. Casual riders are not in it to compete, by definition. I wouldn't worry about them.
Good point.
Fair 'nuff.
...
I think that if we were to split the race in to these two sub-cats then this is a great way to do it. But, I feel like by giving the better stuff to the Squids.... then it is no longer our race. I hate to start an us versus them war. But this race is special to us "goats" because it's a race for goats. And squids have plenty of other places to go shine.
I agree with the sub-cats.. That way, squids don't win up all our cool shit. But, let's not give our precious away just yet.
MMMMYYYYyyyy prrreeeeecciousssss!!!
This may sum it up best. I
This may sum it up best. I like the way you think.
How about $ prize and a pretty certificate for the pros and tons-o-crap and some $ for the notsopros?
I like the idea of separating
but I don't know that we are gonna come up with enough cashmoney to matter to anyone on a bike that costs >$1000. I think the squid teams ride for pride just like we do. I think they show up for FM24 b/c it's grittier and realer than crits or tt's or tri's or whatever those other things are.
how bout splitting up into categories based on your bike. If your bike weighs <20 you get compared to other people with light-ass bikes. If you have a 30+ pound clunker you get don't get measured against people with carbonite and shit. It would be unique... I could try to be faster than other people with average bikes like mine.
ps: I son't think I got smoked by spandex guys last year because they had more expensive bikes.... I recognize that they were also in awesome shape. But I think this model could actually split the field into groups where conditioning and skill have more impact than gear and $$$.
300 first is cool... that
300 first is cool... that like 50 a head. Make it 600 and things will get very interesting indeed.
Most SCCA races I've been to had a 75 entrance fee and the 1st place prize was only ~100 dollars. That's only a 25 dollar delta.... tons of people still raced.
People will race no matter what.... but a lump sum of cold hard cash is very tantalizing and will breed some exciting competition for first (good for spectators).
Why don't we hand out ego massages to the losers?
I'll repeat for repitions sake:
There should NOT be two first place prizes. First place goes to the team that get the most number of laps... period. No first place for fixed and first place for squid or whatever... the crowned king of FM24 is the most laps completed in 24 hours... The only segregation we should offer is solo and team. No, fixed/free, goat/squid, weight, hair color, whatever segregation.
Maybe give a consolation prize to the highest ranking fixed team... but don't crown them winners... because they didn't win. Same goes for fastest laps... why don't we start giving out prizes based on weight or hair length? Like "First place for rider between 140 and 180 lbs riding a fixed gear and having long hair that slows him down but he doesn't want to cut it to win the other category but wants special recognition for his self-imposed handicap" prize?
well put
I like this. never-mind my other post except for the part about the champagne.
+1
We should be planning our race to encourage it to have the kind of character we want it to have, to attract the kind of riders we're interested in riding with, not to turn it into every corporate-sponsored-team filled other race out there. You want that, then go to one of them. If FM24 isn't about fun and street cred any more, I'm not coming back next year.
That way, squids don't win
That way, squids don't win up all our cool shit
If I remember correctly, AVX won up all their cool shit last year.
the best prizes could be for
the best prizes could be for the 3rd & 4th place teams
1st & 2nd places get the honor of 1st & 2nd
lets not forget
that the squids like to drink as much if not more beer than most goats. some of the craziest partys I have attended have been put on by squids.
I like the idea of a serious catagory and a not so serious one.
and if the prizes for the serious one is going to be cash or more expensive stuff make the fee to compete at that level more.
this only applies to teams however.
Solo racers should all be lumped together in the death-wish insane category.
and as for prizes. I would like to put in a vote to class it up a bit by having a few bottles of champagne for the winning team / solo rider to spray on everyone at the awards ceremony.
So I shouldn't have called
So I shouldn't have called the categories what I did.
"serious" and "not so serious" are what I have in mind.
Solos woudl be all out.
And I'm not down with fixie/gears breakdown. You ride what you're fastest on! Would people riding fixed gears want a break because they think they suck, or would people on gears be afraid of them? it doesnt make any sense.
+1
The champagne is an EXCELLENT idea. A case of Andre is only like 24 dollars.
I predict this thread is
I predict this thread is going to mimic the "I'm not going to race unless I know what prizes I'm going to win" discussion we had last year in SO many ways.
this isn't about prizes.
this isn't about prizes. It's about two categories yes or no so CK can make the preregistration form.
I say
have people register as either team or solo. thats it.
Nay. Don't complicate
Nay. Don't complicate things for yourself or the other organizers.
Plus, why do we want a privilege for our self-imposed handicap? Want to beat a squid team? Here's how they do it:
Ride fast and train hard.
I got news for some of you... most of the time... the sponsor only pays for the team kit (uniform) and race entrance fees.
Not the bikes (out of pocket for the squidies), they all have 40+ hour a week jobs and still manage to squeeze in the 20+ hours of training time (could we do the same? Yes. Do we? No.). They pay their own way to races (travel expenses and lodging/food).
Some of them like AVX get dealer discounts on equipment.
I know you may think that the RBM/AVX guys are "pro"... but at best they're only CAT1/2 Amateur... which is something we could all very easily attain if we applied ourselves.
It's not even the "squids"
It's not even the "squids" or the "pros" or whatever. It's the messengers, its the fast FM kids. it's whoever.
What happens when the top 15 teams are all squids/messengers/etc. Nothing against them, but this is a FM race and it's about having fun and people that care about racing and train and want recognition can race in "officially" sanctioned races. FM is not part of any of the "official" bike riding stuff.
What so now people in FM
What so now people in FM have to be first at all FM races?
I'm not following you here CK.
I'm saying when you throw a race make the winner the fastest one (or in the case, the one with the most laps at the end). All other places follow this convention (mostly tic):
First place after "First Place" - First Loser
Second place after "First Place" - Second Loser
Etc.
(This coming from a person who knows that he nor his team will ever be in contention for "First Place" but we come out every year and bust our asses anyhow).
I don't think that's what he
I don't think that's what he meant. I think he is just saying that FM doesn't really give a shit about who wins or loses. The race is more about the fun, not-so-serious angles of riding rather than the ultra competitive angles. Who wins is perhaps inconsequential in comparison to whether everyone is having a fucking blast or not. That's how I read it...
I'm just saying I want to
I'm just saying I want to keep fun as as high of a priority as riding fast. This has turned into a bunch of rideculousness because I didn't choose my words carefully. My entire thoughts of the matter are summed up here: "This is not a sanctioned cycling event and should be fun for people that aren't taking the race seriously." I can't read anyones minds about what would make who not want to race. I'm not going to race this year so it really doesn't matter to me at all. I just need to know what form to make.
Ok,
Ok,
To this I say... if a person doesn't want to race, I don't really care to hear about what their reason is... cause it's a race.
Everyone will have fun... we still have beer and bands this year for the "non-competitive" types.
First is first. No categorization of it. Other that (team most laps and solo most laps), fastest girl and fastest guy.... that's it.
None of this CAT1/CAT2.
Oh, could we get a red jersey for the slowest rider?
If it comes to the point
If it comes to the point where FMers can't even expect to reasonably compete anymore, then we've given our race away, and I'm not down with that.
I agree with you on the category stuff - don't seperate it out much - but I think we just shouldn't change our prizes to attract a different type of competition. Also, I'm all for giving various fun prizes out, so that first isn't a huge haul while no one else gets anything.
If it comes to the point
If it comes to the point where FMers can't even expect to reasonably compete anymore, then we've given our race away, and I'm not down with that.
You know what I'm down with? Having an awesome race and a great time while racing. Honestly, I don't give two shits about who wins what. So what if some squid team in pink spandex wins first place. They fucking earned it. I can't ride that hard. Street cred, props, respect, and yes... first place prizes.
You want FMers to win the prizes? Great, let's cut out the middle man and just throw a great big secret santa dinner party.
I have a red suit.
and a great big secret. now who wants to sit on my lap?
You want FMers to win the
You want FMers to win the prizes? Great, let's cut out the middle man and just throw a great big secret santa dinner party.
By the same token, if you want squids (and I use the term loosely, and not necessarily negatively...) to win prizes, let them go race in uscf races like they already do. The FM24 was born out of a desire to do an alleycat-esque 24-hour race. It was presented by and primarily for FM. We've grown in the past couple years. It only makes sense that the race grows with us. However, I don't think that's a good reason to invite a bunch of ringers to come walk all over us, take all the prizes and then complain that the prizes weren't very good anyway, which I think is what a lot of people are worried about happening. That's regardless of whether or not that's a rational argument. Fear's not rational.
There's lots of officially sanctioned races for the serious cycle trainer out there and those races offer lots of prizes. FM races are largely designed with the cycle commuter in mind rather than the serious athlete. I'm afraid attracting too many serious athletes would negatively affect the flavor of the event. I know first hand, as much as I love riding and racing bikes, that racing against people who are orders of magnitude better than you is discouraging. (Just ask me about the first time they raced the B's and C's together at the track.) Much as I'm averse to turning away accomplished racers, I'm more afraid of scaring off first-timers who are afraid of not being good enough to hang.
everyone's invited.
everyone's invited.
I have to refer you to
I have to refer you to chad's comment below.
this race isn't about pandering to the lowest common denominator to make them feel good about themselves. it's about racing and having a good time.
during the first 24HR race i did 1 lap in about 2 hours. and guess what? i came back the next year. now i'm about to do the race for a third time and i'm not about to get discouraged when i inevitably get lapped by a squid (agreed, not a negative term).
We've grown in the past couple years. It only makes sense that the race grows with us.
I think you've got it backwards. The race has grown in the past couple of years. It only makes sense that you (general you, not dfunk you) grow with the race, ie: train. If you want it badly enough, you'll get it eventually.
But you know what I want? The same thing I want every year: to have a good time, hang out, and see how i've improved over the past year.
I think your biggest mistake
I think your biggest mistake is in assuming that FM put this race together for FM. The minute registration was open to anyone who wanted to be a part of it meant that this race was no longer for FM.
I think that we all
I think that we all accept/welcome the fact that the race is open to anyone(it's more interesting that way). But the argument is that WE have the choice of how we gear(punny) the race, and who we tailor it to. If we throw the baddest alley-cat style 24 hour race and squiddies want to show up and they rock the house FINE! But if we throw a race that creates an adults table and a childrens table, then we have problems.
if we throw a race that
if we throw a race that creates an adults table and a childrens table, then we have problems.
Yeah, plus one to that... but it's beating a dead horse.
Cats have been settled.
Teams 4-6
Solo
No sub-categories. What you see above... is it.
The real debate now is, what the prizes will be for each place in those two above categories, and the big one... who will step up to the plate and get these prizes
If it comes to the point
If it comes to the point where FMers can't even expect to reasonably compete anymore, then we've given our race away, and I'm not down with that.
If it comes to that point, those concerned should get off the tubes and train.
+1
+1
its been said a million
its been said a million times but the bottom line is that this race attracts all sorts because of the TYPE of race it is. almost unique. and of the endurance cycling race/events this is an order of magnitude cheaper. their are stores that sell tropies for those interested in prizes. for those interested in a unique insanely fun race... there is fm24.
if sensibilities are offended that "fun" translates to all skill levels, then maybe this event should be made less fun. like maybe extending the standard two month whinefest that precedes it all the way out to five or even six months.
It's be 12897423 months if I
It's be 12897423 months if I had my way!
More whining!
I'm rated a CAT-1 whiner by the USWF. I'm in my element, baby!
the standard two month
the standard two month whinefest that precedes it
HAHA! exactly!
Most valuable thing I learned as an undergrad: deal with it
Most valuable thing I've learned since then: chillax, then fucking deal with it
BYOB
BYOB
i never thought of it that
i never thought of it that way. yeah GT!
Lol, that thread became
Lol, that thread became sooooo funny.
Ok, so first place is first
Ok, so first place is first place no matter what cat your in.
Then, Not-so-Serious, Serious, and Holy-Tits-Your-Racing-Solo sub cats.
No, Solo isn't segregated...
No, Solo isn't segregated... it's First team or solo.
The other prizes... consolation prizes to whomever. Like a floor lamp or the complete set of Milton Bradley board games.... not the "BRAND NEW CAR!!!"
No way, The guys who ride
No way, The guys who ride solo should totally have their own cat. They have no chance of actually wining the race versus 6 man(ish) teams. But they are the most hardcore element of the race. They deserve their own cat. Perhaps there is some problem with this that I am overlooking. But, I think solo is just in a class by itself. I'm not saying there needs to be a first, second, third place for solo. Maybe just a first place.
Yeah... First team and First
Yeah... First team and First solo.... ie... the First Place category.
2cents
i think chris is trying to figure out a way for people to not have a reason to give up in the middle of the race. maybe one of the prizes can be for "fastest 20th lap" or something like that.
perhaps maybe a tier system? avg the group time of say the 4th lap from each team member. then organize teams by this average into tiers (tier 1, tier 2, tier 3, tier 4). each tier can have a winner...
Real prizes for make believe
Real prizes for make believe things. Yes!
Please start a new thread about some things prizes should go out for.
I'm convinced we can just do
-Teams of 4-6 people
-Solo
For the registration categories.
Yeah, like a prime.... but
Yeah, like a prime.... but not quite. (edit - or prizes for superlatives!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criterium
What about... all the riders that go out between 'time X' and 'time Y'... the first one back gets a prime. Maybe? I don't know. Help me out here... I know there has to be a way of giving out primes.
Also... what kind of person* "give[s] up in the middle of the race"... bleh. You got to stick it out. That's what competition is.
don't change
ck, i think teh fact that you're proposing categories shows how big this race is getting. and that's awesome.
with that said, i think we should stick with the standard that's been established:
-first through X place (regardless of your hub or fucking fashion sense)
-fastest lap male/female
-most laps male/female
-etc
if you want to reward those who aren't sponsored or whatever, have more prizes for more places, but don't start a convoluted system to award arbitrary team traits. my team has two half-asians on it. does that account for anything in cycling? hess dogs are all couriers, i don't see anything going to them either. there have been all-girl teams. nope, nothing there either.
i vote we keep it simple.
heres yer solution.
just give ME all the prizes, and I'll dole them out (to myself) as I deem nessesary.
everyone else can race for fun, since they don't have to worry about racing for prizes.
there, I just solved everything.
fluffy bunny kitty brigade wins again!
Austin = King Solomon
Strangely, I like this solution best of all.
Registration
I'm in favor of 2 catagories on the form, Teams and Solo. Not so much in favor of the Casual / Advanced.
Prizes should be discussed in a new thread.
After thinking about it:
I agree, one category for ensembles, one category for soloists. Gets too complicated otherwise.
Score ten deep and have prizes for all top ten teams. Nothing too huge. Make the prizes mean a lot rather than having them be worth a lot.
NO CASH- I think having a cash prize runs counter to the spirit of this race. Tangible prizes should be secondary to having fun, glory, street cred and friendly competition. If that makes people stay home, we're probably better off without that sort of attitude. If this makes messengers or squids or whoever stay home because they feel they have nothing to prove and they'd rather save their legs for a shot at the big $$, that's cool. Maybe those people would want to ante into a pot for a separate cash prize. (Hey, that's not a bad idea: Betting on your skill. Hmm.) But really, the closest I'd feel comfortable coming to a cash prize is a LBS gift cert.
Lots of superlative prizes designed for all the little sub-categories and things we'd like to recognize. (fastest lap, fastest 20th lap, most awesome crash, most enthusiastic rider, best n00b, most awesome bike, most handicapping bike, etc, etc, etc, ad infinitum...) I think this is where the fun factor will come in and where the people who aren't gunning for the top ten will have a chance to win something. (Even if it's just a patch or something saying what they won for. I think it's the recognition rather than the prize itself that'll mean the most.)
I see where Seth is coming from in terms of not wishing to call anyone but the team and soloist who got the most laps the "winner." Winning in a sub-category might feel kind of hollow anyway. But I don't think that means we can't find other ways to recognize people who ride hard, do their best, and pull off some cool shit. (See the above paragraph.)
Barring all of that, just give Austin all the prizes and ride for glory.
Ok, I'm sold on team and
Ok, I'm sold on team and Solo being the only real catergories.
And then redirecting the focus of the prizes to be more substance driven than expensive. More trophy than purse.
it's decided! prize
it's decided! prize discussion in a new thread plz so this one doesn't explode.
K
I think it's been confusing because categories and prizes are so intertwined.
think "registration
think "registration categories" instead of "prize categories"
Way to reconfirm the status
Way to reconfirm the status quo, guys, and change nothing.
if there are categories they
if there are categories they should be DFs and bents.
what people do in their spare time shouldnt have any bearing on their placement
I bike. That's my category.
I bike. Don't categorize me any more than that. Solo and groups are two different races happening at the same time in my mind. They make sense as 2 categories.
but as soon as we start thinking of ourselves as squids, goats, fixies, frees, messengers, pros, notsopros, the entire idea of bicycle unity is thrown out the window.
Ride Bikes. Period.
They make sense as 2
They make sense as 2 categories.
but as soon as we start thinking of ourselves as squids, goats, fixies, frees, messengers, pros, notsopros, the entire idea of bicycle unity is thrown out the window.
agreed. what made the race for me last year was talking to some of the guys from squid 1 and 2. they were just normal guys and it shattered my notions of what "squids" were.
i don't want a hand-out because of the bike i ride, or how often i ride it, or if i'm paid to ride it. i just want the opportunity to race with everyone for 24hours.