I think the biggest jump from an awesome race last year might be increasing spectatorship. I suggest several ideas:
1.) Once the route is set, we alert local restuarants/bars that they will be good places to come and watch riders blow by.
2.) When teams preregister, they submit a team or individual photo (in uniform) and a short info text. We then compile a list of competing teams so that spectators can visit 24.fm.org see who's who. (i am volunteering to take on this responsibility)
3.) I know RFIDs have been discussed heavily in the past. I think the biggest flaws were in that we wanted a reader at every checkpoint. What if we only had one reader at the start/finish. The RFID system would NOT be used to keep official track of the race. All RFID info would be used to keep a real-time online scoring page for spectator use exclusively.
any thoughts?
RFID is in the works
RFID is in the works already... we will see if it rears it's ugly head at the race though.
I like the pic of every rider though.
1 and 2 are awesome
1 and 2 are awesome suggestions. the web app for tracking on 24.fm.org should do those pictures. It's already pretty involved, so I'll probably need to make that happen.
As for #3. RFID is being used to track the racers. There will be a web app for live updates on a map, and a reporting system for doing the tables at home base. A reader will be at each checkpoint and will be much faster and more efficient.
(I've added you to ckdake.projectpath.com so you can see whats going on and contribute. Please make todo items for #1!)
I have seen the 6 gap
I have seen the 6 gap century implement rider tracking chips to disastrous results. The remote "hill climb timer" tracking stations have never worked in 2 years of them trying. The start/finish station worked, but I think only at the finish. The start times were not recorded correctly.
I am pretty sure it was operator error in every case, but rain did contribute once to the "sensors taped across the roads" tape coming untaped and jumbled up.
HF active RFID works best
HF active RFID works best with a wide loop antenna... ie you (and the active RFID tag) ride through the middle of the loop.
I can see how the ride organizers may have tried to save money by using a flat antenna to have the riders ride across it at the in between points.
Rest assured, this sort of thing will NOT happen at FM24.
maybe they aint the same
maybe they aint the same thing. just saying, watch out, technology can bite you in the butt and in a case like a biek race there's no 2nd chance
Nah man, the stuff we're
Nah man, the stuff we're using is the same as the door swipe cards. Those always work.
Plus, there's a manual system in case of failure.
do the cards do
the timing also?
You do realize computers
You do realize computers have built in clocks right?
I'm just asking if you do it
I know it can be done
jeeesh :P
let's just say each swipe
let's just say each swipe gets timestamped in more than one place.
i hope these multiple
i hope these multiple timestamps calibrate themselves with Minkowski Space rotations. i wouldn't want any cumulative Lorentz contractions to affect the outcome of this race because we were trying to use multiple clocks.
it's hard to argue a winner when both observers are correct in observing different things, if you catch my meaning.
and finally, i'd like to take the remainder of this post to announce my second place finish in this year's race. it was very close, and i'm sure you all enjoyed the drama, but it will soon be over and you will all remember the joy you are about to have.
I can guarantee
I will be first Brazilian, and if not that, first charmingly balding US qualified Brazilian attorney working in London for an American firm.
Speaking of that...
There are three lawyers on your team. My team has no lawyers...
I know...
Do you want to just sign over your bikes to us at the beginning of the race, or should we at least serve you with some papers to make it worth your while?
so you're gonna race for
so you're gonna race for bike pink slips? I sense a new tv show... oh wait, NOT!
Dang
I need to figure out what I'm doing about a team so I can start trash-talking too.
Solo.
One word is all the trash-talk you need.
your team
has no lawyers,
but i bet i can guarantee that our team is the only team that has an arborist, as well as somebody who can read sanskrit and speak tibetan. if the race involved reading dead languages carved into trees, we'd win for sure.
Holy Crap
Every rectum has a silver sphincter for you. I (heart) you, Conjob!
ha!
you mean carved into trees made into organically spirited bikes, right?
it's like an eigenspace.
it's like an eigenspace. except different. congratulations on your finish.
Ziiiiiiiiiiiiiing!
Ziiiiiiiiiiiiiing!
and like clocks every one is
and like clocks every one is slightly different! dont forget a time syncher
you must have better door
you must have better door cards at your work than i have at my work. i get probably a 98% success rate... maybe one re-swipe in 50 swipes. well, they're taps, not swipes. i tap the card to the sensor.
with 50 riders, that kind of success rate would lose one rider on every lap! 98% success is really pretty damn bad
Do the card readers at your
Do the card readers at your job confirm a success with an LED flash (red to green) and piezo buzzer beep? The ones where I work do. Part of me thinks a visual and audio form of confirmation is enough... maybe we'll work a physical form in too... like a punch to the taint :) /tic
j/s
Without a confirm... you swipe again... I don't see how that has a failure rate.
Last year people had problems using the hole punches... such is life I suppose.
It's easy enough to try
It's easy enough to try again to get into the office, but there's no 2nd try when you are zooming past on your bicycle. There's also no awareness of the failure. Just sayin.. Haven't been impressed by the rental bike timers I've seen. I'm sure there are perfect systems available at a very imperfect price.
Last year was a hole punch
Last year was a hole punch and pieces of paper. People won't be zoomin by on their rides with lasers trying to count their nose hairs as they ride by or anything.
i wonder if i could mount
i wonder if i could mount laser pointers all over my bike. that'd be neat and really increase visibility
If shit doesn't work, the
If shit doesn't work, the rider will be instructed to move along. Final word on each lap requires someone at some point later in the evening to "approve" the lap and assign a rider to it (since the rfid cards will be one per team). IF a checkpoint is missing but the riders lap time is consistent with their other laps, it could still be approved. The only required swipes will be to "check in" to do a lap and "check out" when you're done.
ah, so no zooming past on
ah, so no zooming past on the bicycle. i see!
Nah man, the stuff we're
Nah man, the stuff we're using is the same as the door swipe cards. Those always work.
...
yeah, i had pictured
yeah, i had pictured somebody fishing a door card out of their pocket and slapping a reader with the card in their sweaty hand while zooming past on a bicycle and went "naw dat aint it" and thought you meant it was the same technology in a general sense but not really and truly the same as card readers, but seeing now that the swiper in not on the bike when swiping it makes morse sense
that's highly dependent on
that's highly dependent on rider skill. I have the benefit of downhill flying rfid taps everyday to train on. :-P
You stay out of this Panda.
You stay out of this Panda. /tic
Literally the exact same
Literally the exact same technology. Not just in concept, I mean... you know...
But don't go thinking "Oh
But don't go thinking "Oh man, I can just skip all the in betweens..." because you can't. Mostly because if you constantly do that (people recognize patterns)... disqualification is in your future.
sometime after qualification
sometime after qualification i bet!
this thread
is further proof that drednoks are all about image!
drednok?
drednok?
DREADNOKS! okay, so i can't
DREADNOKS!
okay, so i can't spell.
Fuck... I'm glad I went to college
This thread totally takes me back to senior design. Passive is definitely the way to go in my opinion, higher success rate and much cheaper. In my project we got a passive system working with a range averaging 3 - 4 feet from a loop antenna, so it may be possible to "scan" your card by just slowing your role and approaching the antenna on the side of the road. This way there's no antenna related shit in the middle of the road and we still get more speed than if you had to fish your tag out of your pocket to scan in.
I can also envision an LED panel instead of a single LED for read confirmation, that way if there are several people trying to scan in at one time, you'll see your team name spelled out when you are all clear and good to go. Plus you get to see something like "ANTHROPOPHAGUS RULES" to fuel your spirit until the next checkpoint. /Pipedream
Its not as big of a pipe
Its not as big of a pipe dream as you might imagine! The only slightly difficult thing here is getting updated team number lists to the checkpoints when a team looses a card and has to get a new one which will have a new id.
Maybe
each team has one backup already ready and sitting in a heavily guarded place. That way each team gets one chance to loose their tag. Two strikes and you're out.
shame on both of you
it's "lose", "loose" is the opposite of tight
I don't want the tracking
I don't want the tracking system to prevent people from being able to "complete" the race. They'll have to pay for each replacement card (like 5$ or something) and will loose a lap, but some people could just be unlucky. What do you tell the solo rider on lap 12 that lost 2 cards?
"Dude, you don't have a
"Dude, you don't have a piece of shoe lace to tie the card around your neck?"
fuck that. its a race. and
fuck that. its a race. and these are the batons. I said this last year: have you ever done a race where it was ok to lose your number? let alone THE FUCKING BATON. if you lose the baton. you turn around and go get it. if you can't find it...well, that makes it kinda hard to log more laps in.
if these are the rules and they are clear, people will not lose their shit. and if they do... they're still welcome to hang out and listen to the awesome lineup of bands for cheaper than most shows with less shit.
agreed.
there should be no excuses for losing shit.
or for loosing shit. it's a race fCs.
All the other 24 hour races
All the other 24 hour races I can find allow for recovery when you loose your baton. most of them involve some time penalty, and it seems all the rfid ones require $ as well.
What if someone has been training their ass off all year and on their first lap they get hit by a car and it knocks their card off into a gutter. People shouldn't loose their card but the system does need to allow for it in the case that special circumstances come up.
:nasal voice: I don't know
:nasal voice: I don't know Panda... what if blah blah blah whampa whampa whampa :/nasal voice:
+1 Agreed. Adding it to teh rules. "Lose your tag?, well too fucking bad"... or something like that, something that won't make nine year old girls cry when they read it.... like:
"Upon loss of RFID lap tracking tag, no replacement will be issued. Teams are responsible for maintaining secure possession of the tag through out the the entirety of the race."
I think if you don't want
I think if you don't want somebody to lose something of yours, make it more painful for them than it is for you if they lose it.
Why not require a deposit on the RFID cards?
If somebody does lose one, and the card truly cost FM $5, if there is a $50 deposit, FM just made $45 and can then issue the team a new card for another $50 deposit (and hope they lose that one too!) And they lose that lap too.
This way there is good incentive not to lose the things, but it can be handled profitably if there is a loss and the team does not have to be eliminated. Why would you want to eliminate them? At that price they are your most profitable participants!!!
Ok, imagine you are watching
Ok, imagine you are watching an Olympic relay race... one team loses the baton (throws it into orbit maybe)... should they be allowed to get a new baton and rerun the race? ICOG doesn't think so. Neither does FM.
FM24 is a relay race at it's core. There has always been a 'baton'. First year it was the box key. Second year it was the punch card. This year it will be an RFID tag.
Granted last year you could get a new punch card... but frankly that was a mistake made on behalf of the rules committee and it made it unfair for the other riders. Rest assured, this type of transgression will not occur again.
I can see how the loss of a
I can see how the loss of a punch card meant more: It carried the team's record of the race (or maybe lap). Lose the punch card and you've lost your race records.
The RFID card, though, is merely an input to the system that records the race. The card is just a card. It's not the actual record. Losing the card does not mean the record is lost, so it seems like it shouldn't be a very big deal. The records are still in the computer to which the reader is attached.
and olympiads are on steroids and testosterone and EPO but they ain't drunk!!!!
Nah, I think for the sake of
Nah, I think for the sake of simplicity's sake on behalf of the volunteers and to keep things fair, we aren't going to issue new cards.
It's a baton, don't lose it. That's what string and your neck is for.
Other things to consider... it increases the upfront cost of the race... because we would have to purchase cards for people losing them... it takes time to reassign a new card, do you want to be the one to stop what your doing and input new card data into the computer while everyone else is doing laps/keg stands? If so, we have a nice table you can sit at and aren't allowed to leave.
smartcardworld.com says when
smartcardworld.com says when buying fewer than 999 card, the cards are 84 cents each. that may not be the right card, but even if the cards being used cost 5 times as much, you're still at less than $5 per card
"tard card #1" and "tard card #2" could be preconfigured in the computer. if somebody reports a loss, you hand them "tard card #1" and that's that until the end of the race.
at the end they remind the record keeper person of their loss and the record keeper person binds "team drunken morons" and "tard card #1" records together.
this could be an extra $50 or $100 or [whatever the deposit is times x number of losses] extra revenue. why eliminate the potential profit center when the financial risk (price of a few extra cards) is so low?
card loss could eliminate teams and create ill will OR be a big money maker for ~84 cents plus a relatively small post-race administrative task of appending the tard card records to the pre-loss team records
i'm not comprehending the aversion to the potential profits
Cool, hey everyone Chrisd372
Cool, hey everyone Chrisd372 has offered to pay for the cards and man registration for the entirety of the race. Sweet!
If I can pocket the deposits
If I can pocket the deposits on any lost cards not only will I man registration I will hand out free tequila shots (to encourage loss)
You enthusiasm has been
You enthusiasm has been noted. I've taken your suggestions to committee.
Ok, committee has
Ok, committee has adjourned.
It's a go.
Replacements are available. The cost is 10 dollars.
awesome! dqs should be
awesome! dqs should be reserved for cheaters or people being big jerks to the volunteers/hosts
this is why nathan and i
this is why nathan and i never get along.
Don't dream TOO big... this
Don't dream TOO big... this year it will just be a reader with a beep and single 5V LED flash (green, as in "holy shit it's a lion, get back in the car").
Next year though... that will (possibly) happen (we don't have the budget to buy fancy schmancy readout panels this year). It's an excellent idea though.
Also, the read distance is less than a foot (this is real LF). Also the readers will be off the road... so no "zoomin' by". Touch and go maybe... but no zoomin'.
holy shit it's a lion, get back in the car
Don't forget what happens when you put blinkenlights around a city. (And those didn't even have antennas) Just saying... don't make the readers look too scary / homemade / terrorist.
i'm partial to throwies.
i'm partial to throwies.
somewhere there's a site
somewhere there's a site with a dude who took those to the next level. he took a really long pole and attached a "hand" of some type to the end of it. basically, he could arrange the throwies into a pattern, shape, phrase, whatever, and then use the pole to stick the image onto a hard to reach spot. I'll see if I can dig it up.
-
I might have other uses for those :) thanks
I love throwies
I love throwies - they're awesome!!
1-31-07: Never Forget
Holy crap, what is it with
Holy crap, what is it with society these days and being pisspants worry worts?
They'll be inside businesses... but the readers will be in the window or something... like on a dog's butt.
jesus christ, it's a lion,
jesus christ, it's a lion, get back in the car!
but +1 for bringing in that ref.
meanwhile, in diy land
the taco's are accepting sponsorship in the form of homemade banners hung at friendly businesses along the route.
if this RFID thing happens..
..is participation in that system optional?
if? it's a definite. It is
if? it's a definite. It is _the_ way that laps are tracked this year. No, this year we are not requiring anyone to get RFID implants.
Watch out Rachael! Don't be a chump!
You know it is really just a way for THE MAN to get a chip implanted into all you alternate lifestyle folks.
Wait a minute, that's most everyone here...
Speak for yourself. I'm
Speak for yourself. I'm getting 666 tatoo'd on my ass as well.