I don't want to delete anyones accounts, I don't want to institute some rating system so people can get upset when their posts are modded down. I don't want to say that anyone isn't invited, but this shit is getting rideculous. Enough people keep asking me to do something that I'm going to throw this back to you all and ask that you do something.
The outcome of this thread will be a policy that _everyone_ needs to follow and what will happen when people do not follow this policy. Put some thought into this, discuss other places than on FM, and put some more thought into it. We need to do whatever needs to be done to keep this a forum where everyone can speak their mind without worrying about undue harrassment, where people can have conversations without being interrupted with unnecessicary comments, where people can discuss sensitive issues without exploding into ZOMGMYBIKESBETTER arguments, etc. This policy should be short, simple, and to the point. I'm thinking 2 paragraphs tops. GO.
THINGS TO ROLL WITH:
-can't put in a system of moderation that requires everyone to play nice
-X# of users can "report post" and if it gets to a certain number something happens?
-respect for others
-Am I making a post which is either funny, informative, or interesting on any level? Does my reply offer any significant advice or help contribute to the conversation in any fashion?
-general discussion for everything -> ontopic forum, offtopic forum. Names?
We're an open-source system,
We're an open-source system, in that WE create the material, WE execute the ideas, and WE ARE FASTER MUSTACHE.
That being said, we cannot have moderation systems, because that places certain individuals above other individuals. That destroys the perfect communism that the open-source system allows for. So how do you deal with problem posters?
Here's the thing. They aren't that big of a deal. We get one what, every six months? And the general clamour against their stupidity is usually enough to get them to shut up. At that point, it is a group-decision, which is how everything else on FM is.
You can't put in a system of moderation that requires everyone to play nice, because a lot of gentle ribbing takes place that would seem not-so-nice to outside viewers. You can't put in a system that forces topics to stay on topic, because then we'd have a million threads about a million things. This isn't a biking gang anymore than it is a social site - non-bike related activities are frequently posted, but that doesn't mean you can't discuss bikes either.
You want to adhere to a hopeful system of 'everyone places nice' with the images. That's how discussion should be. Everyone should understand, and if someone is out of line, then they find out pretty quickly. It's not always the most pretty of ways, but it works.
edit: I'm willing to be wrong, because I think people here are old enough and mature enough to realize that when they're in the wrong, they're wrong and leave it at that. That being said, if you think someone else is wrong, it's not always necessary to call them out on the boards - private messages works here too. A simple, 'Hey, you've been coming on too strong lately, maybe you should lay off it' would be excellent. Maybe this is an argument for in-house message-systems?
Actually, thinking about it,
Actually, thinking about it, a moderation system would only work if everyone was a moderator. Instead of being told, 'Hey cool it' by a person with a name, and instead of being told, 'deadcowboymike found this post less than helpful -1', what if there was a 'this is against common-decency' button you could click and when it reached, say, five clicks, a singular notice would be sent to that user with a list of reasons why, where the person who clicked could enter anonymously so.
The multiple user-thing would help against the idea that one person could effectively shut down someone, it would need to be a multiple person decision, and the anonymity would help allow people still be friends without repercussion. And it's not like it physically limits anything you can do on the board - it just lets you know that you should think before posting next time.
But again, I must reiterate my original point: A set of established rules is probably unnecessary.
This works
As long as there is some kind of disciplinary mechanism present, I'm happy. Something like the "against common decency button", or even an anonymous post filtering system like what they have on slashdot. Set comments to start with a neutral score, and then have a filter option that defaults to "only show me posts rated '1' or higher". Right now you can post whatever you want, and nothing will ever happen to you. I could bomb the shit out of every thread posted, and nothing would happen. Somebody could even register their dog as a user on the messageboard and have him post inane threads as a satire of people using the boards as an ersatz form of email.
Nobody has to get nasty, nobody directly hurts anybody else's feelings, and if all your posts started getting voted down, it should be a sign that something needs to change.
It maintains the sense of community involvement, and it doesn't task anyone with the job/workload of patrolling the forums looking for trouble. "Open Source", as it were.
-? to Anonymity
I think anonymous ratings would breed a lot of paranoia. It'd be one thing if we were an enormous community whose members largely had no real world contact. But we're a relatively small group by internet standards and many of us see each other in person regularly. I think that's a bad combination.
every six months?
We get one what, every six months?
How did you measure a 6-month cycle in 42 weeks?
Starting points. Feel free to rip it to shreads.
We’re a community of cyclists, from different backgrounds and with different perspectives. At all times, we expect our members to respect that.
We’re a on-line and off-line community and expect our members will make a sincere effort to contribute their thoughts on interesting subjects in a meaningful and respectful manner. Posting messages and otherwise interacting on FM is completely optional; many members often prefer to just read what others have to say. But if you do post, we expect that you’ll be respectful of the time of others by posting meaningfully.
We expect our member to show respect for others. Respecting their person, their views, their time and their opinions, and their belief systems ... even if you disagree with them
Borrowed/edited from another board.
AGENTS ARE GO!
Before you post: Before posting, please ask yourself the following question: "Am I making a post which is either funny, informative, or interesting on any level?" If you can answer "yes" to this, then please post. If you cannot, then refrain from posting.
Before you reply: Before replying, please ask yourself the following question: "Does my reply offer any significant advice or help contribute to the conversation in any fashion?" If you can answer "yes" to this, then please reply. If you cannot, then refrain from replying.
also as an aside - having funny inside jokes or catchphrases to share with each other is a big part of forming a sense of group identity, but I think there is a tendency for people to take these things and then completely run them into the ground. In moderation, they're cool. In excess, not so much.
Subforums
Additionally, I like the idea of creating subforums with different levels of strictness. As long as there's a general understanding that "If I post this in forum X, I realize there's a good chance that within 5 replies everyone will be talking about something completely different and any hope of obtaining interesting input has vanished", I don't think there's a need for strict moderation. The problem right now is that "forum X" accurately describes "posting anywhere on FM".
It's not often, but sometimes really cool bike-related shit happens and it would be awesome to be able to talk about it without having the thread soured by pointless OT drama. Especially if you have people who have something interesting to say about the original topic, but feel like there's no point in typing it up because the thread derail is already in full effect.
in all good fun
Dear Lowtax,
I am a fervent supporter of the SA forums and greatly enjoy perusing them. Daily, are my needs for neckbeards, pedophiles, and incest-love discussions regularly and satisfactorily met. I feel that between you and I and these words, Lowtax, we have come to an understanding of where I truly belong on this internet o' mine.
That being said, I would like to ask that you create a subforum on your wonderful site, because I feel it is the epoch and zenith in internet lifestyles. Your subforum would need to be entitled (as if I am anyone to dictate unto you! Aha!) 'FasterMustache' and ideally, password locked so that our true treasures of vegan cupcakes and 12" cogs will remain hidden to the world.
In return, I offer you the 10$ of every non-SA subscriber who will need to give you 10$ to subscribe to access these forums.
Yours,
FasterMustache.
it's good cause it works. we
it's good cause it works. we could re-invent the wheel, of course, but I prefer to simply borrow things that are proven to work! We'll call it the joy of open source vs. proprietary software.
I need that link to that
I need that link to that article where that guy invented square wheels and proved that any wheel could work, because it's not the wheel that's holding you back, but the terrain that is holding you back.
edit: aha. http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20040403/mathtrek.asp
edit2: oh god we're going offtopic, I hereby moderate myself off this line of thought. SEGMENT CLOSED
1 Rule
Rule #1) Everyone chill out
see everyone saturday night :)
I think it's simple
I once heard Christopher Rampton say:
"Check your douche at the door"
I interpret that as don't be snooty and condescending. Granted, I'm not innocent here:
When Gregg told me that the ideal gas law proves that tires explode when you increase the pressure, I had to show him what's up.
When that one dude's post all are totally incoherent, eventually I was gonna say something.
When some folks keep consistently making 50+ posts about muffins while questions about repairs go by the wayside, I got annoyed.
But I learned from my ways and I totally resisted pointing out Gregg's hilarious spelling errors (until now, I guess).
Lastly, I once heard Jay say, "save the drama for your momma."
No moderation or rules
just mutual respect please.
I agree.
I agree.
Word.
If some peeps be having problems then they can settle their issues in the streets, on bicycles.
1
Nobody's Not Invited
IMHO anyone getting pissed about this sort of thing is taking fm.org AND the entire intertubes way too seriously. Think of it all as a big giant bathroom stall wall. If you have a sharpie and something to say, have at it. If you say something mean or offensive or stupid or crude, prepare for backlash. If you are offended by the whole process, then shit somewhere else.
Everyones comments towards
Everyones comments towards "just be nice" are appreciated and well, but it gets very difficult for me to keep responding to emails/ims/textmessages/phonecalls/drunkenconversatiosn about how "X needs to be done about Y". A paragraph that I can point people at that sums up things would be a good thing. It also gives newcomers something to read and understand when FM seems a bit unwieldy.
gossip is human nature. a
gossip is human nature. a couple of paragraphs won't change the drunken conversations about x doing y and y doing z on the board :(
You aren't a mod, CK. Make
You aren't a mod, CK. Make that point clear. I think that because you aren't willing to be the final line and you run the site, then we shouldn't have any moderators at all. Kurt and Christopher talk all the time about how we are an open-source system, and that's a line we should respect even here.
When someone drunk bitches at you, just tell them, 'I don't mod. I just make sure the site doesn't go down.'
"You aren't a mod, CK. Make that point clear." +1
maybe we can just come up with a few lines that basically say what you just said mike - There is no moderation on this site, its an open-source system - if you have problems with something take it up with the individual on your own time or something. Try to stay on topic like you would with any discussion, and be considerate.
atleast that way he does have something to copy and paste in a email response if and when someone complains... (which is really goofy that someone would, I must say.)
I'm kinda scratching my head
I'm kinda scratching my head over this. Posts on this forum come in waves. (Between classes for some; between tasks at work for others like me?) Sometimes some trash gets washed in with the high tide, but it leaves mounds of truth, wit, and wisdom too. I think the truth should be spoken in unvarnished terms, even when it leads to conflict or misunderstanding. These can be straightened out or perhaps become less personal as time passes and we get to know each others' natures better.
I'm always curious to know how others use this forum. I think there's an obvious difference between a post composed using a Blackberry and using a keyboard. I think the utility of these devices lend themselves to different forms of expression.
I haven't seen any topics that I would moderate. But CK's life should be kept simple. He has other things to contend with than moderating what are usually just friendly dust-ups.
what if
what if it's up to the thread's author to be the moderator of their own thread
great potential for bias, ie
great potential for bias, ie SRAM cat says pandas suck, panda says NO WAI, SRAM cat mod's -9324867324 t3h panda.
i see
yeah, but maybe user 'X' will learn what not to post on user 'Y's thread?
fyi, not necessarily give authors edit privelages, just give them the responsibility of the threads direction
-----
this moderating thing is bull anyway imo, but i feel everyone's pain/grief sometimes
I like the idea...
of the author modding the thread... I'd never mod Panda down.
hAPPPY BIRTHDAY FASTER MOUSTACHE!
frist psot!
OMG TEH INTERNETS!!!1!!
Who really cares? What happened to everyone's invited? It's a message board for fucks sake.
I think
The unmoderated, un-rule based aspect of FM is its biggest asset. Threads here are like conversations, you start somewhere, and end up in a completely different place and it is fun and congenial. Do people say shit they should probably keep locked inside their head? Sure. If it is just awkward, we can laugh internally at how awkward someone is. If it is too off color, usually someone jumps in with gentle admonishment, or with "WTF DUDE?" if the person is being a real bonehead.
Ultimately, I don't really see the point in moderating, or having a policy. All that will do is cause conflict about whether a comment falls within acceptable guidelines.
Here is a good policy statement.
The forum is not moderated.
Everyone is invited.
Check your douche at the door.
Quit bugging ckdake. Read the above. Stop sucking.
Here, here. >>>Ultimately, I
Here, here.
>>>Ultimately, I don't really see the point in moderating, or having a policy. All that will do is cause conflict about whether a comment falls within acceptable guidelines.
Bingo.
A policy will not free you(ck/us), it will only imprison you. Its a suckers game, lets not play it.
So...
...I was baking these muffins.
CK
Just set up an OT forum and then categorize the other ones... set up moderators and stop listening to these "Open Sores" hippies.
It's our hangout space & everyone's invited.
I think that FM is an online forum for a community of welcoming friends. There are other bike-specific web resources out there: SBL, SORBA, Velospace, Fixed Gear Gallery, etc. that are on topic 24/7. FM is something different. It is the online version of hanging out together at Johnny's. Sometimes the discussion is silly, sometimes it's serious, and a lot of the time it focuses on bikes. Personally, I enjoy that.
I think people should avoid (non-joking) personal attacks, but I don't think that moderation is needed. On the other hand, given how much more material there is on FM complaining about objectionable material than actual objectionable material, there are clearly people out there who want hard rules. Still, I am encouraged by the number of people who have posted saying that they do not.
I think it would be helpful to be able collapse sub-threads, if possible. Then, people who dislike off-topic conversation could just hide sub-threads that veer somewhere they don't want to go.
If a thread gets irrelevant to you
stop reading it. If one answered your question or addressed the issue at hand, it is probable that there was no interest or no one knew anything about it.
OR they just wanted muffins
Scroll Buttons - How'd you learn to scribby scroll so fast?
1
don't know if it's possible...
I think it would be helpful to be able collapse sub-threads, if possible. Then, people who dislike off-topic conversation could just hide sub-threads that veer somewhere they don't want to go.
...but that seems like a good solution
i agree with whoever says what i'm about to say
If i want strictly bike talk i'll go to bikeforums.net. To be honest any discussion on FM that's talking about an article i pay little attention to. I like FM becuase of the care-free nature of the people/posts.
and when people ask you to do something is it a serious request or just an innocent comment?
danget i've been catching up on fm posts and forgot i have a chem test i'm supposed to be studying for right now.
watch out
for that ideal gas law
Fart!
Fart!
LEO the lion goes GER
Lose Electrons Oxidize Gain Electrons Reduce
Cheers!
I think what we have here is an overworked and frustrated CKdake. He has tirelessly managed this site from inception to its current crazy state of awesomeness. This weekend we are not only celebrating 2 years of biking like no ones watching, but also 2 years of CKdake's commitment to this site. Cheers Chris!
Here here
A toast to the man.
Hear Hear
Now back to work, Bitch! There is codin' to be done.
JWD?
you kcik ass
Teh New Deal
These ideas have floating around in my head for a while now. I gave it a few days to give it some serious thought.
I use the terms "members" and "users" interchangeably. These are not in a particular order:
I've seen it suggested several times ITT. OT posts become a problem when they detract from a thread that directly relates to the reason this group and this forum was created: cycling and cycling-related discussion. The creation of such a sub-forum would stop a lot of needless arguing and would allow discussions of off and on topic natures to continue in an appropiate fashion. As a start, I would suggest something in the vein of "strickly cycling", "a little of both", "anything goes/completely OT/not cycling related at all."
Obviously we won't need mods for the OT forum, but we need a group of mods to organize the more official forums. These mods need to be mature enough so as not to delete on-topic posts simply because they were written by someone they have previously had a disagreement with.
This FM catch-phase that was the backbone attracting people to the group/site during 2005 has been run to the ground and reduced to little more than a joke. Yes, everyone is invited. But that doesn't give you free reign to act like a douche or attempt comendere the site. Everyone is invited. And people will want you to hang out more if you are nice.
The catch-phase dropping needs to be curbed. This gives new members and users a feeling that they have to fit a certain image to belong. Everyone is invited... to be yourself and contribute to the group, not act like you have something to prove or fall over yourself trying to fit in. When I first started riding with faster mustache it was basically ID and Arch majors from Tech. You don't see me learning to use photoshop, and i didn't ride fixed for well over the first year i hung out with the 'stache.
Yes, we all, to a certain degree, are "members" of faster mustache, but it most certainly is not a pseudo-communist group. This points again to people clinging to the everyone is invited motto. My point being: is the faster mustache fund in your bank account? Do you spend your spring break and free time updating this website? Do people expect you to take pictures every CM? When was the last time you organized a race? While we all have the option of contributing and organizing, there are leaders in this group; they're so easy-going and laissez faire that you forget. This group wouldn't exist if it weren't for a few key people. If anything this group is an EXTREMELY laissez faire oligarchy. They put the cogs in motion, we do the rest.
Some people have suggested we just mutally respect each other. Others have questioned why even address these issues. I am going to be blunt and say that the quality of this forum has been declining for quite some time and some new organizational techniques are obviously needed. It's not the fault of any one person and certainly NOT the fault of the website's admin. It's just that this forum has to the point where standards need to be initiated before this website and cycling group desolve into one big joke along with the efforts and hard work of so many people.
Hear hear... all point in
Hear hear... all point in the above post are 100% accurate.
I would like to reitterate that the overall quality of the site has gone down hill since we got it in out heads that "everyone's invited" means "I can say and do what I like".
CK, we NEED moderators. If a mod gets out of control and abuses his power, that is what you are for, to kick his mod powers to the curb.
For the first mod nomination, I would like to nominate fellow Goon... Gonger.
well said
well said
How about
a vote one posting guidelines and moderators. I am pretty strongly against it, but it would be nice to see what kind od a headcount we get on both sides if both side agree to abide by the results of the poll.
i am pretty against it too.
i am pretty against it too. i mean, things aren't that bad here on the site even if occasionally they do get out of control. i've seen a lot worse and moderation might do nothing but bring up more silly arguments and hierarchies instead of diminishing them. actually, i'm quite positive of this.
i do like the idea of having an in house messaging system, that way when someone requests you take it off the thread, or you want to have a nice debate of something completely OT, then you can easily do so. i think that would solve a lot.
About how moderation can lead to political arguments
Yeah, we can't forget that nearly everyone here knows each other outside of the internet, and our relationships bridge both realms.