Ok, I've been doing a lot of thinking about SAG (specifically for each team, not a SAG crew for all teams) during the race and have come up with some scenarios that we may need to decide on, give a yay or nay on each:
Rider gets a flat, another team member arrives (alerted by radio, bat signal, whatever) and gives the rider with a flat:
A. a tube
B. a whole new wheel
C. a whole replacement bicycle
Rider goes down and can't finish the lap (bike mangled, knee skinned, out of steam, whatever) and the SAG crew arrives to:
A. give the rider a lift back to Johnny's where another rider starts, the downed riders lap is not counted
B. drop off another rider to finish the lap the downed rider started
Rider goes down and can finish the lap even though the bike is mangled and it can't finish and the SAG crew arrives to:
A. give the rider, with spirits crushed, a ride back to Johnny's where another rider starts, the downed riders lap is not counted
B. deliver a new bicycle and the rider continues on into the sunset
1. A/B/C all ++ 2. A++
1. A/B/C all ++
2. A++ B-------
3. A++ B++
++ means A okay
-- means I don't think thats ok.
agreed
+1
Jawohl
Seems reasonable.
On 2B: If SAG team member
On 2B: If SAG team member arrives via bicycle, does that change the opinion? Suppose that someone is almost done with their lap... it doesn't get to count. I don't think that an incomplete lap should count for individual totals, but I don't see why you can't trade off and have a teammate finish the lap in the event of emergency. You've already lost tons of time due to waiting for your support to arrive. It's getting penalized even more for stuff you can't control.
once an individual sets out
once an individual sets out for a lap, only that individual may finish or forfeit that lap. this is a rule common to all relays of this sort. there are no exceptions to be made there are no extenuating circumstances. if the finger of God came out of the sky and zapped the rider ten feet from the finish, no rider would be able to pickup the charred punchcard and gain credit for tha lap, the lap would be gone and the team would need to start the lap anew.
if there is a midlap forfeit the rider must return to the transition area and pass the baton to a team member, or a team member may ride out to take the baton and then return to the transition area to begin a new lap. it may sound harsh, but this is the line that must be drawn, there are no exceptions.
also, mishaps are what make racing racing. you don't give F1 pilots free laps or sympathy podium placement because they spun out and wrecked or were thrown off the course by another racer's mistake.
the simplest rules are often the best.
except
Except for bike races, criteriums in particular, where you get a free lap if you have a mechanical of some sort or whatever. But, those are not relays, nor do they last 24 hours. If your team is in contention and there is an incident, your team should be strong enough to try to overcome it, á la Breaking Away. Besides, every team is subject to random crap happening on the course.
OK.
OK.
Do like horses
shoot the downed rider
agreed
agreed, but if I get thirsty during a lap can one of my team members bring me a beer, or do I have to get it myself?
I'm not sure how I feel
I'm not sure how I feel about this... it assumes that everyone or at least every team has a spare bicycle that will at least reasonably fit all of their team members & a means to get it to the downed rider -- ie a car.
I'm more inclined to say that all support (except injured rider pickup) must be delivered via bicycle or be available at Johnny's. And I'm ok with switching off during the lap -- it just wouldn't count to individual totals.
Then again, I wasn't able to ride last year, so I don't know what policies & issues you had.
switching during a lap?
fuck that shit. you finish that lap or don't. its that simple.
i concur
you finish what you start. if you leave on a bike and that bike breaks in two, you either walk it back or get a new bike and strap the broken one to your back. you finish a lap with all the equipment you started with. no less, but maybe more.
"leave no trace"
How about
if it breaks during a lap, you can call and someone else from your team can start your lap fresh. That way, teams that cannot go rescue the rider still get penalized, and no one gets an advantage for having a car available (they basically lose all the time the rider used until the breakdown), but and no one is subjected to having to walk all the way back with a broken bike (or arm, or leg, or whatever else breaks).
it's a bike race. you can't
it's a bike race. you can't sag someone with a car. if you go to help you go with a bike or on foot. if they are injured and require a car then so be it. but your baton may only be passed to someone on a bike. if your rider goes down and is carted off, their baton must be left in place until a team member rides up to get it, brings it back to the transition area and checks out to restart that lap. transportation of the baton may only be done by bike or by foot. you can get to the baton by cutting across the course (you don't have to follow the route to get to that spot), but cars may not be used for the transportation of active riders or batons. if you ride in a car you forfeit your lap. if you ride in a car to help someone you are ineligible to ride your team's next lap.
Wait... "if you ride in a
Wait...
"if you ride in a car you forfeit your lap. if you ride in a car to help someone you are ineligible to ride your team's next lap."
For simplicity's sake, let's say two rider team for the following scenario. Rider #1 goes down. Injured to the extent that #1 is in need of a pick up. Rider #2 picks #1 up with car, leaves baton unattended, bikes back to baton, picks it up. Bikes back to Johnny's, then can't race the next lap?
under that chain of events
under that chain of events the next lap is valid. maybe my wording was confusing. what i meant was you can't pack your bike in the car, ride out grab the baton and bike back in to restart a lap. you must go get the baton on a bike, you must return it on a bike.
or more simply: cars are for
or more simply: cars are for the emergency transportation of hurt riders only, and may be used in no other way.
Yeah, that's what I was
Yeah, that's what I was trying to say, though I don't like the idea of batons lying around the city unattended.
You can't go out with a new
You can't go out with a new card with the baton still with the downed rider.
.
.
Hmm....
Ok, so this is what I garnered from the conversation:
All field SAG (that is away from Johnny's) is to be done by bike. So if a person needs a new bike, he gets the one that the SAG person is riding on. Need a new wheel, you get the SAG person's wheel, tube, etc.
New questions:
Once a lap has started, can it be forfeited and the say another rider starts a new lap from Johnny's while the person who has forfeited is still out in the field? The lap of the person who forfeited not counted.
Scenerio: Person A goes out for a lap and gets hit in the face with a lime Icee. Person A goes down in a whirlwind of sugary goodness. Person A radios back to his team at Johnny's reporting that he has gone down and is unable to finish the lap, his chain gummed up from the sugar, but is ok due to the sucrose influx. Person B starts a new lap, with new punch card, while Person C hops in his car to hose down and retrieve Person A. Person A's lap is forfeit, while Person B's lap is not. Kosher? Not Kosher?
I always thought the winner of the race was the team with the most complete laps... not really the fastest laps, but the most laps (of course having the most sort of means you have the fastest laps). I thought the only time fastest comes into play is for the 'Fasterest Mustache Individual Rider' award.
i can agree with that.
i can agree with that.
yeah. all sounds right to
yeah. all sounds right to me. I think it can be summed up as: the rider starting a lap must have the "token." that rider must finish the lap with that token on their bike for the lap to count, otherwise, another rider may take up the token at the start of the course.
teh token?
is it secret? is it safe???
the token may be an entry in
the token may be an entry in a spreadsheet. or it could be a 60lb burrito.
eh...
that was a LoTRs reference and not really adding anything to teh thread. liek a lot of my posts.
token question
so you're saying if rider crashes in middle of course, the team has to go get the rider, bring him and the token back to johnny's and then start another lap?
that's fine, but I don't see a problem if another team member goes to crash site, do whatever and somehow finish that lap with the token b/c a crash is enough of a handicap by itself.
I'm saying the token of the
I'm saying the token of the downed rider is no longer valid... period. So another rider has to start from Johnny's with a new token (my understanding is the 'tokens' were to be business card sized pieces of colored paper with a b/w pic of some sort on them, they get punched at each check point).
i don't think a rider should
i don't think a rider should be allowed to finish another rider's lap. a rider should only be able to finish a lap they started. i do not feel strongly about if the rider+token must make it back to HQ first, or if they can just call in busted and the next one goes out. A physical token makes sense here (and we need to remember in building the tracking system that a lap may be marked as "invalid" but still have a card turned in)
The tracking system is
The tracking system is 'custom' hole punches, correct?
yeah. i was considering the
yeah. i was considering the "token" and the tracking system as two separate things for the sake of discussion (only one token out at a time, vs downed rider with lap card and a new one could go out thus 2 cards on the course though one is void)
So do we or do we not allow
So do we or do we not allow a team to get a new token/lap card before the previous one is turned in, valid or invalid? Any lap card from an incomplete lap should come back without all punches -- unless the accident was after the last checkpoint. An invalid punch card can simply be Xed out with a marker.
how about there be no token.
how about there be no token. if you want to start a lap while another rider is out, do it. only the last rider marked 'out' will be able to return a valid card though. all riders must return a card. lost cards do not mean invalid laps, they mean lost laps (as in -1). that should take care of any stockpiling or confusion.
example: team of four people. each leave at five minute intervals. as each rider leaves the rider ahead of them is marked as forfeit in the race officials ledger. all return at five minute intervals beginning approx 45 minutes later. three get marked as non-laps the fourth is counted. team has one lap.
example 2: same team, same start. rider 1 2 and 4 return. rider three was hurt couldn't return. riders 1 and 2 recieve non-laps. rider 4 gets a lap. rider 3 gets -1 laps until the card can be returned (at which time it will be marked a non-lap). anyone can return the card, but it must be brought back for no credit, or the team will have 0 laps total.
Logic?
Why the -1 for a lost lap card?
responsibility
all cards must be accounted for. if not, there could be stockpiling.
"oh i lost my card"
"that's ok, you just don't get credit for that lap."
"tee hee, soon i will have five cards i can ride one lap, punch them all, and rake in the beer...shit, did i say that or just think it? can they hear me?"
"?"
now replace line 2 with "that's ok, you lose a lap" see what happens?
My thought was that you
My thought was that you simply can't turn in more than one lap card when you return from a lap. You can only turn in the last one you received. All prior cards must either be already counted as complete laps, or invalidated.
sure, so you walk up every
sure, so you walk up every thirty minutes from your team camp and present a card. whatever. i doubt anyone would be dumb enough to just walk up with a stack of cards all at once. it's not the dumb ones i'm trying to thwart.
It's not the dumb ones I'm trying to thwart
These aren't the droids you're looking for.
Yes, but only the last card
Yes, but only the last card your team received is still valid.
are we just arguing for the
are we just arguing for the sake of arguing?
this is how it's going to work. you get a card, and you either bring it back for a point, or it's brought back for no point, or it's not brought back for a loss of a point. (idealy you can't get a card without a baton)
i really don't like the idea of not having a baton, but i'm still missing around ten of my lockrings from last year's race. i don't have a lot of experience in professionally hosted endurance events, but i do have some. and this is how it's done: everything the race organizers give you, you HAVE to have each time you come through for a lap. and most of the time, it's not a penalty you get, it's a dq. the race xtopher and i did, if you lost the little paper number that they gave you to twist tie to your bike (now this was a muddy mountainbike race, so keep that in mind) you got disqualified from the race. several people had to ride complete laps in reverse to go back and get either their number or their baton.
if you lose a card, or you lose your baton, that sucks. but you are gonna have to go back and find it if you don't want a penalty. if you don't like that you will lose a point if you lose your card, then DONT LOSE YOUR CARDS!
consider it a littering fee.
*shrug* As far as cards go,
*shrug*
As far as cards go, I 'm not really arguing at all. I'm just trying to clarify things and make sure that we don't overcomplicate our system needlessly. Please don't take me as being antagonistic, because I'm not. Also, I agree that people really shouldn't be loosing their cards.
maybe the big thing is that
maybe the big thing is that we are only three weeks away and this stuff isn't set yet. so either everything needs to be set by this friday (i chose that randomly) or each thing that needs to be decided needs to be assigned to a volunteer who will assume responsibility for that item.
here's what i see:
a general manifest of rules and governing situational guidelines needs to be laid out.
the route is set and the checkpoints are all but decided (exact locations are currently mapped, and awaiting proper coding for visual presentation).
some final operational logistics need to be established. (race booth personelle equipment and such)
prizes need to be confirmed and gathered.
duties need to be collected.
entertainment needs to be set up.
many of these things may already be done, and i may have missed a couple of things. i have been working on the route and running through race rules during most of my free time, so i don't know much about prizes or entertainment (mostly because i don't plan to win anything and prefer silence to music most of the time). it seems there are a number of people who are spearheading most of the main points of concern here (venue, music, prizes, tracking/rules). and perhaps there should be some form of meeting set up very promptly to iron out everything. i think ideally, we should be able to put this race on an entire week ahead of schedule (that's the level of preparedness i would like to see coming into form in the next week).
Preparedness is what I'm looking for.
Sounds good to me.
I swear we are making it
I swear we are making it sound complicated just by discussing it. Just come to the race and know that everything will be fair and fine. To this day I haven't heard any complaints about the veracity of last year's results.
"I swear we are making it
"I swear we are making it sound complicated just by discussing it"
No shit. Anything that seems simple becomes crazy as soon as we start talking about it.
sure, and..
be prepared for the mega-undoing of plans on the day of because shit happens.
look, this is how it works.
if you think you might get a flat, bring a spare tube and a pump. if you think you might shred a tire, bring a spare tire. if you think you might snap your frame in half, bring a spare frame.
just fucking be prepared, and you won't need nobody to rescue you. problem solved.
oh
snap.
+1 for personal
+1 for personal responsibility. that was the idea of my deleted post. but much more long-winded.
don't forget a spare leg if
don't forget a spare leg if you bust yours.
Ok, here we go, the
Ok, here we go, the synopsis:
All field SAG (that is away from Johnny's) is to be done by bike. So if a person needs a new bike, he gets the one that the SAG person is riding on. Need a new wheel, you get the SAG person's wheel, tube, etc.
And the solution to Panda's problem:
Number the cards, same as the tickets last year (the tickets were numbered to prevent someone from just grabbing a handful of them and then doing the scenario that Panda laid out). The person handing them out keeps track of the number, and the number they have on hand is the only one that will be counted for a lap. Problem solved, without aggression.
Example: Rider A from Team A prepares for a lap and gets a card numbered 0001. Race organizer marks that card 0001 is with Rider A from Team A. Rider A goes out for a lap. Goes down, but not like goose feathers. Rider A radios the mothership. Rider B from Team A prepares for a lap and gets a card numbered 0002. Race organizer marks a line through 001 next to where it's written that Team A has it, thus voiding it, and gives the new card to the Rider B.
Solution to panda's
Solution to panda's "problem" is perfect.
I think the whole by bike thing is a little silly. If the person rides their bike on the whole lap that should be fine. Imagine this, you get a flat, you call back, it takes atleast a few minutes for the car to get there, fix the flat, and you're still out more time than if you didnt have a flat or had your own flat fixing stuff. Heck, chances are good SAG support could get there more quickly by bike than by car.
That is true, very true
That is true, very true about the SAG by car being slower than by bike. I am going to force my teammates that don't know how to fix a flat to learn before the race so they will be their own SAG crew.
Also, if there is a large mechanical failure of someone's bike (ie. wheel splitting or frame bending hilarity) then I'm pretty sure the rider will be out for the count as well.
The reason the questions were asked was the situations might come up, and better to answer them now then during the race.
So in summation, and to beat this dead horse some more:
All SAG must be done by bike.
Only the last ticket issued will be counted for a lap.
rider substitution is not
rider substitution is not allowed.
i have a sequential number
i have a sequential number stamping device.